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[Beth]

I know many intelligent and capable women. I am one myself. Each time a friend and I get on the topic of men, and how they deal with intelligent and capable women, there are certain phrases that continually crop up.

"He just couldn't handle that it wasn't all about him. He told me he didn't understand me. He said that if I coudln't be totally devoted to him, and not to 'that damn organization where they take advantage of you' that I could just leave, that he'd rather be alone. Didn't he learn to share, in kindergarten, like the rest of us?"

"He didn't understand how important it was for me to show my co-workers I could hold my own. He accused me of not loving him anymore, because I had to take time away from him to work extra."

"He called me names, and told me how stupid I was. In the end, when I proved mysel right, there was no apology or admission he was wrong. He just gave me the cold shoulder for days - until he needed to have sex. Then I was "wonderful" again."

"He acted as if I had hit him in the head with a 2 x 4. So WHAT that I won? How does that make him less of a man? Why is he so underconfident, and why do I have to sacrifice MY confidence to stroke his ego?"

There are others, but you get the jist. Many women, myself included, feel like we often have to dumb ourselves down so we don't threaten a man's ego.

Guys, what's going on? What do we have to do, besides dumb down, to get you to see when we care? How can we take care of ourselves, and you at the same time?

Comments?

[Red51]

Beth, you and all intelligent, capable women scare the bejeesus out of me! Just kidding--I'm attracted to intelligence, but that has nothing to do with the way we men act when the little boy in us feels deserted, slighted, unloved. Blame our moms.

And I believe (jury's still out) that I just may be an intelligent, capable man... Maybe, just maybe, it's the mothering instinct that many women have that leads them to pick the wrong guys. It's only a guess. Still, you are the ones forced to deal with it, so I'll look over some of your list of complaints.

"He just couldn't handle that it wasn't all about him." This couple has power issues, and it is usually but not always the guy's insecurity. Sometimes, it's about selfishness on the womans part (more on this further down). "He told me he didn't understand me." Either communication is missing or he IS stupid, and you can't fix stupid. "He said that if I couldn't be totally devoted to him, and not to 'that damn organization where they take advantage of you' that I could just leave, that he'd rather be alone." He is insecure and selfish. He feels abandoned... or, she is selfish and addicted to work for the rush it gives her. I'm sorry, but I feel that 'family'--and this includes your partner--comes first, no matter who is working too many hours. Workable is balance, unworkable is one side only.

"Didn't he learn to share, in kindergarten, like the rest of us?" There is no "the rest of us." Some men (and some women) never learned to share and never will, some learn late in life, some (usually, but not always, women) get eaten alive by being all outflow, all "give" and no "take," until they are drained. In all things, strike a balance.

"He didn't understand how important it was for me to show my co-workers I could hold my own. He accused me of not loving him anymore, because I had to take time away from him to work extra." I don't understand this: You either hold your own, or you don't. Working more hours has nothing to do with anything. He may have a valid but badly expressed point here: if anyone needs to work extra hours to show their co-workers they can hold their own, they obviously can't! A boss notices these things. About the "not loving him anymore;" abandonment issues, real or imagined, should be discussed openly and in a nonthreatening way because, after all, aren't you also supposed to love your partner?

"He called me names, and told me how stupid I was. In the end, when I proved mysel right, there was no apology or admission he was wrong. He just gave me the cold shoulder for days - until he needed to have sex. Then I was "wonderful" again." Absolutely no excuse for any namecalling, including demeaning ones like calling one stupid. However, "when I proved myself right" is completely wrong-headed thinking. I learned the hard way (two divorces) that 'proving that I'm right' is not a good idea. There's an old saying aimed squarely at husbands: "Would you rather be right or happy?" I'm up for happy! And never expect or demand an apology for having been right or an admission from your partner for being wrong; that is just rubbing your partner's nose in it that they were wrong--and you would hate it if you were in his shoes. Also, a man often sees an offer of sex from their woman as the woman saying, "Everything's better now," and this can cause more confusion in our simpler, less subtle minds. Don't ask me why--we're just wired that way.

"He acted as if I had hit him in the head with a 2 x 4. So WHAT that I won? How does that make him less of a man? Why is he so underconfident, and why do I have to sacrifice MY confidence to stroke his ego?" So WHAT that he lost? "I win/you lose" is a dangerous game that destroys many relationships. Marriage vows should be amended to read "... to cherish, and to never be right..."

I could go on with the rest, but in the end, an intelligent, capable woman needs to find an intelligent, capable, and confident man who is secure in who he is and who is willing to be part of an equal partnership. Willing also to compromise, to be, um, wrong on occasion!

[Chris]

@Red51, I mostly agree with everything you wrote. Some of it was a bit harsh though. The point about the "you won/I won" stuff is dead on the mark.

Hi Beth,

To answer your first question: I don't think intelligent and capable women scare guys. It's my opinion that some men are so focused on a particular goal that the realization that their goal and yours don't match is what scares them.

Now, there are of course more parts to your post that really should be addressed.
1) "it's not all about him" -- Is a relationship that's all about a single person really a relationship? Or on the other side, if it's all about her instead of him is that the relationship you implied he was going to be a part of?

I think the part he didn't understand was the part where he thought he was part of a relationship and soon realized that she is willing to sacrifice all of their time together to the "organization" instead. I don't believe anyone likes to be neglected no matter their gender.

2) "he accused me of not loving him anymore, because I had to take time away from him" -- Yep, this part right here is where the realization and fear are in my opinion.

Let's take an example in the work place, since that seems to be a theme. Suppose, that after she's proven she can "hold her own" she receives a promotion with a new office, car, and all the perks she could ever dream of. Pretty sweet right? Ok, now tell her that all that stuff has to go away and she will be starting in the mail room come Monday. What do you suppose the reaction she might have is? It may depend on the individual, but I'm betting there will be dissapointment and anger in there somewhere. Is it really any wonder that a reaction to a realization like this is not going to be very well thought out or reasonable?

3) "Didn't he learn to share, in kindergarten, like the rest of us?" -- Heh, it's been a while but in my experience the guys in kindergarten didn't share all that well to begin with. You might schedule some time to observe a kindergarten class or two if you have any doubts about how that particular lesson differs between little girls and boys. But, I do think that's not the point. What she presented as the new conditions of the relationship wasn't a situation that involved sharing, it was all about sacrifice.

4) "have to dumb ourselves down so we don't threaten a man's ego" -- Of course, I can't speak for every guy out there, but for myself, I'd be dissappointed with any girlfriend that thought all I wanted was a dumbed-down version of her. I wouldn't want you to diminish yourself, however you are half right. Again in my opinion, most guys ego's do need to be stroked. The big point here is that you can build your guy up without putting yourself down. If he's at all concerned about the relationship he's probably already made some effort to build up your ego to have even gotten to this point with you. It's about returning that effort, not about dumbing yourself down.

I hope this gives you the perspective you were looking for. I'd be curious about your thoughts as well. Also, sorry about writing a small novel, but as you've said this pattern does repeat fairly regularly, I guess I just got tired of seeing the same questions. If you'd be so kind I'd like to get your permission to post your original question and my response outside this site. Who knows this might be helpful to quite a few people who share your questions.

Best of luck,
-Chris

[Red51]

Thanks for the (mostly) nice words, Chris. What I need to do in the future is to write my response, wait a day, re-read it, make changes, then post! Beth, I honestly didn't mean to be harsh; I just get a little, well, exhuberant when I write. In future posts, I'll work on my 'voice,' my word, which is really all that I--all that anyone--has.

Don

[Denise]

Not all men are like that. I know alot of my male friends love the fact that I am an educated women, with intelligence. But you also need to remember it also depends on the intelligence level the woman is on.
Men also do not like to feel less than of a women when it comes to intelligance.

In a sum men love intelligent women because in their minds an intelligent women, more than likely has a good careers which means she can take care of her self, and doesn't need a man to take of her, and she is well independent.

[Beth]

It's very refreshing to read what is written here. I really appreciate the attitudes of those of you who have responded so thoughtfully. Frankly, it is not what I expected, and I am so pleasantly surprised!!

I will say that I agree with you! It's both sides, and it boils down to a temporary perspective that is blown out of proportion, most of the time. It stems from a victim stance. I think some men are intimidated by capable intelligent women. So, that should be watched for and worked on together. Some women are intimidated by worse, at times.

Thanks, Y'all!

[Red51]

Thanks, Beth... you made me stretch a little! Chris, if Beth allowed you to post beyond this forum (so that you wouldn't need to modify your post), you are welcome to ad my response as well, as long as you let me know where it gets posted. I'm interested in following it to read the responses. It's an eternal student thing...

[Chris]

Don, I've yet to hear anything from Beth on that point. If she doesn't have any objections I will certainly let you know where you might find the post. Thank you for your contributions, I'm sure they would add greatly to the discussion.

Best wishes to both of you!
-Chris

[Beth]

Hi Chris,

I do apologize for neglecting to answer you.

I don't have a problem with the post going off-site. Thank you for asking, that was nice of you!

Beth